Let's talk about the EU, shall we?

[lyore]

Fair warning - I am in a grumpy mood today. So grumpy, in fact, that I have a whole stack of fic open in tabs that I am resolutely not reading, since I don't want my lousy mood to pollute my enjoyment of the stories.

So, with that in mind, I decided now was a good time to post my feelings about Allegiance, by Timothy Zahn. Yes, I was disappointed - TZ is one of the very few SW EU authors I like, and this book, while not a bad read, completely failed to live up to it's potential. Forget any thought of this actually being about Luke, Leia or Han (despite the blurb) - it's basically the Amazing Adventures of Mara Jade and The Good Imperial.

Note to Timothy Zahn - just because you 'bookend' the novel with scenes of L, L & H doesn't mean the book was in any way about them. If their section of the story finishes 50 pages* before the climax, chances are they aren't being used in a way that is particularly central to the plot.

Ok, that may be a little snide, but you really could remove L, L &H from the story without any effect on the plot. Chewie is a non-entity. Actually, so is Luke - I think he gets to perform one useful 'parlor trick' the entire story, and apart from that just hangs around. Leia and Han fare a little better, but even then there is so little impact on the overall plot of the novel that you could literally pluck that section out and not affect anything else.

Oh, and Vader gets maybe three scenes, all with Mara.

Frankly, I'm not even sure why they were IN this novel, unless TZ thought that he couldn't get approval to write a story set in the OT timeframe without them. TZ, if you want to write a story about your OC's go ahead - it worked well in Outbound Flight, after all. But stop advertising the story as about the original characters if all you are going to do is have them play second fiddle to your Mary Sue Original Characters - and, even worse, shoehorning them into a side plot so disposable that it would have been cut had it been about anyone else.

This may not be such a dealbreaker for anyone else - but I read the EU for the original characters (err... as in original trilogy characters - I'm going to call them 'real' characters from now on, to stop myself getting so confused) first and foremost. Despite what some people say, I'm actually fairly tolerant of 'new' OCs, as long as they don't start diminishing the 'Real' characters. I just don't think there are that many EU authors out there who can maintain the balance for any length of time. And fair enough, from an author's point of view - there are more places to go with 'new' characters, especially when you are writing in such a constrained period, and there is also less chance of writing something that is going to be 'Jossed' by GL/the next author. But don't expect me to be all that interested, unless you can suddenly come up with a character I care about as much as the 'Real' characters - and Mara isn't it (although to be fair, she's better than the alternatives).

The other 'new' characters are the Stormtroopers, and I think that Zahn did a much better job of creating them as well-rounded characters - they have flaws, and despite an uneasiness about the empire, they defected out of necessity and almost by accident, they cling to the memory of an Empire that probably never existed, they still hate/blame the rebels and better yet, not one of them is some kind of amazing anything - they were created with restraint.

My other major dislike in this book involved Mara, but possibly not the way you think. I think I've finally figured out why I have such a knee-jerk dislike of her when I'm actually reading TZ's books, but don't mind her when considered objectively, or when reading L/M fanfic.

It's TZ action description of her that really annoys me. The step-by-step walkthrough that happens every time Mara fights someone - every step, every move, counted, described, in a completely dry, 'She rolled twice to the left and then she did this and she did that, and then she did this' way... just a catalogue of moves and steps. And since Mara fights people a lot - that's a lot of annoyance.

I can't give any examples straight from the text, since I've leant the book to necromage, but I remember one passage which literally involved the description of how she did a back summersault - but ironically, I couldn't figure out that what she had actually done was a back summersault until it was mentioned later in the paragraph. I was too busy trying to figure out why it was significant if she ended up exactly two feet to the right.

I don't notice this with his action description with any of the other characters - whether or not this is because they don't tend to fight hand-to-hand, or because this style of writing is just meant to emphasise Mara's fighting ability, I don't know. All I know is that it bugs the hell out of me, and is probably one of the main reasons (besides the lack of 'real' characters) that I didn't enjoy this book as much as I thought.



After all that - the book really wasn't too bad. It just wasn't what it was advertised as, and not as good as I was expecting from TZ, so I felt a bit miffed at paying $55 for it. Ironically, this weekend I borrowed The New Rebellion from a friend and enjoyed it more - very unusual for me, given the era it was set in.

* this is an estimate - no, I didn't actually count.

Comments

[amethyste5.livejournal.com]

I haven't read it, and probably won't. I was drifting away during that whole bizarre Yuzan Vong thing (and I know that's spelled wrong) and when they did that to Chewie, well, I just stopped entirely. I'm just gonna re-read my X-Wing books and remember the good old days.

[lyore.livejournal.com]

Spell it any way you like - I never made it that far :) I think I made it through about 1/2 of the first NJO book, and then stopped. I'd been fed up with the EU before that, but that was literally the last straw.

But I had high hopes for this one, it was set in a good time period (between ANH and ESB), and there's so much room to play with the characters between those movies... *sigh*

I've never really read the X-Wing books - partly because *see above* I have a big thing for 'my' characters, but mostly because I don't have anyone to borrow them off.

[vasher.livejournal.com]

For the longest time, I thought that Mara was some fanon Mary Sue that grew really popular. Then I figured out she was a canon one.

Do you have any recommendations for good Imperial/Stormtrooper books? Those guys are awesome. <3

[amethyste5.livejournal.com]

If you lived closer I'd loan them to you myself. If it helps they do contain Wedge, Hobbie, and Wes, all three qualify as real, if minor, characters from the original trilogy. ;~}

[redbyrd-sgfic.livejournal.com]

I haven't been following the SW stuff, but I've read a bunch of TZ's original fiction. And I had read the first one of his Conquerers trilogy and it ends on a cliffhanger. Which I hate, loathe and despise. So I heard him talking at a convention about the second one which was just coming out, and asked him in the Q&A if it was going to be another cliffhanger.. because I *liked* the first one, but I'd have bought the second and third together if I knew it was a cliffhanger. (I got burned twice on trilogies where the second ends on a cliffhanger and the third was never published.)

And he said, "No." And it was a lie. The jerk. If I read his stuff at all now, I get it from the library. Not another dollar of mine does he get- ever.

[lyore.livejournal.com]

Wedge would be enough for me :) It's just a matter of availability.

[lyore.livejournal.com]

She's exactly the thing fanon would have come up with, isn't she? I wouldn't mind her so much, if they could just stop her overshadowing Luke.

Well, the stormtroopers in this book weren't bad, especially for the SW EU - which I find to be generally disappointing in terms of characterisation, if you hadn't already guessed :)

But apart from that, I can't think of any off the top of my head. If I come across any, I'll let you know. Although, while the perfectness of Thrawn also annoys me, I don't mind the minor Imperials in his books, if you haven't read the others. (It seems to be a general rule with Zahn that I like his minor characters, but dislike the OTT-ness of his major ones.)

[lyore.livejournal.com]

I haven't read any of his original fiction, mostly due to lack of opportunity - although he's one of the few EU author's I consider 'readable', his writing isn't good enough for me to go on a concerted hunt for his books, and I haven't seen them at the library.

But I can't believe he did that - slight fudging or misdirection in those circumstances I can (maybe) forgive, but out-and-out lying? What a jerk. It makes me regret buying the book even more.

[cloverfizz.livejournal.com]

I have the X-Wing books, except for Starfighters of Andumar (spelling?)
When I move back to Canberra, I shall loan :P Or I could start posting them to you now, LOL.

[cloverfizz.livejournal.com]

Well, NOW I definitely have no motivation to shell out for this book :P (not that I was planning to, cause I refused to pay the $55)
I love Luke and Mara, but mostly from the original/first Zahn trilogy... I do agree that since then other authors have butchered both her and Luke. To follow on from the butchering, I didn't like her effectively correcting Luke's use/teaching of the Force in the new Zahn duology but I could kind of live with it (okay, I was swept up in L/M fangirl love cause they finally got together and I've been shipping that since I was 12, but anyway...)
SW in general has gone completely down hill IMO. We both know I completely refuse to buy NJO books, for killing off my beloved Anakin (and I haven't even read that far into the series, I just refuse to). And the back stories with Anakin Skywalker are a mix of completely dodgy I-Could-Have-Been-Written-By-A-Twelve-Year-Old and a few good ones from what I've read thus far... I think I have started to give up on SW... I will maintain my love for the Original Trilogy, but the newer written stuff in the EU and the prequels have lost me, effectively :P

[lyore.livejournal.com]

Internal Mail FTW! (Apparently, I'm channeling my inner M@ today *g*)

When you get back to Canberra will be fine... or when I come to visit I could grab some.

[lyore.livejournal.com]

You can borrow mine, if you like.

I didn't like her effectively correcting Luke's use/teaching of the Force in the new Zahn duology

GOD yes. This is when I lost my Mara tolerance. I didn't mind her in the first Zahn trilogy - she wasn't my favourite of the characters, but I could cope. But when I read the duology, and got to that bit, I just... words fails me. And since we all know how ranty I can be when annoyed, you'll know it's really bad when I can't express how pissed I am :)

Yes. The EU is, with a few exceptions, crap. The prequels were, by and large, disappointing. But the OT still sucks me back in every time...

[cloverfizz.livejournal.com]

Oooh! Good point. I almost forgot you were going to be up my way :P

[cloverfizz.livejournal.com]

Borrowing sounds like a plan! (On a side note complaint - why are books so expensive in Australia? *pout*)

And yeah... that kind of thing really annoys me... It was one fo the things that turned me off I, Jedi and a few other books where Luke gets criticised... I know every author has mangled use of the Force and changed things to suit themselves, especially with Luke, but to then put the kids books into the official timeline and have Luke go "oh...maybe I was wrong" just SUCKS!!!
Honestly out of all the original characters, poor Luke gets ruined the most!!

OT will always suck us back :P The key is to ignore EU, lol. (Which yes, I'm getting to this point as well, sadly. It's just getting worse and worse, plus I guess I'm growing up and reading them with a more mature perspective than I had at the age of 12)

[lyore.livejournal.com]

Why are books so expensive in Australia?

Because we are a captive market? We can't just pop over to the next country and buy it from there, after all.

Honestly out of all the original characters, poor Luke gets ruined the most

I know... Poor Luke :(

I guess I'm growing up and reading them with a more mature perspective than I had at the age of 12

Or you've listened to me whine and moan about it so much that I am slowly brainwashing you into my point of view? :P

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

OMG. Star Wars talk. I am definitely going to friend you back now.

I was really really into Star Wars in the 90's. I collected and write fanfic. I read the EU books.

I stopped at...whichever one killed Chewie. By then, I was just extremely annoyed with where the books had taken the characters. I liked Zahn, but felt he was a little too technical and clinical. I did like books like The Courtship of Princess Leia and The Truce at Bakura. There were others I liked too.

I wasn't overly fond of Mara at first, but by the end of the 3rd book whatever it was called, I liked her a lot. The books that followed processed to butcher her.

Poor Luke, though. Luke is my fave character and he was absolutely destroyed. I really didn't like the Anderson trilogy or the whole Luke went Dark Side bit. And I didn't like that Han and Leia would send their kids away like that. Ugh. Just so much annoyed me and the EU had so much potential.

Sadly, Mara is just a huge Mary Sue. She wasn't a terrible one because she had potential. But Zahn's love affair with himself in addition to the character destruction done by other authors to the EU characters and the original characters just killed it for me.

[lyore.livejournal.com]

OMG. Star Wars talk. I am definitely going to friend you back now.

I was reading your introductory post, got to the 'Han Shot First', and decided we'd probably get along :) I tend to switch between Stargate and Star Wars, with occasional forays into other fandoms.

I must admit, I'm not the world's hugest fan of the EU (as you can probably tell *g*). I like the first Zahn trilogy, Truce at Bakura, and a few of the other books, but in general I feel that the only way I can tell that these are 'my' characters are by the names. Like you, I liked Mara in the first 3 books, but it was all downhill from there.

Luke is my fave character and he was absolutely destroyed.

He's mine too. I think it's a common theme - people who like Luke don't like the EU. Can't imagine why. :)

Luke going Dark Side was one of my biggest 'hates' of the whole EU. Just No. If he won't turn to save his father, he isn't going to do it, no matter what. *sigh* Sometimes I wonder if the profic authors are even watching the same movies as me.

Ages ago I read a fic, set about 20 years after RotJ, which had Mara discovering that the REAL Luke had been kidnapped and replaced by a clone, thus accounting for all the inconsistencies in Luke's characterisation. When fanficcer's are resorting to thatlevel of retconning to explain poor characterisation, you know there's a problem somewhere! And the same applies to the other characters (OT and EU), although to a lesser extent.

Um, sorry. I seem to have slipped into EU-rant mode there - I do that sometimes :)

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

I was a bigger Star Wars fan than an SG-1 fan. I still love Star Wars, but I've eased up on it after so many bad books. I liked the prequels all right, but my fave characters are the original trilogy characters. SG-1 sort of eclipsed my SW craziness, but my love of the movies and character never changed. But I never got into the SW fandom much and my old SW writing buddy and I had a massive falling out a couple of years ago so...I haven't had anyone to really discuss SW with in a long time. I nearly peeded in my pants when I found discussion on your LJ.

My problem with Luke going DS is basically the same as yours. The whole point of ROTJ was to show that Luke was tempted, like his father, but unlike his father, he had the inner strength and resolve to deny it. Luke could not be turned. It is such a huge important character point that cannot be messed with lightly. And since the comics did that to him and carried over into the books, there was no way for his character ever to fully recover from that. It ruins the character and the impact of the movie to do this to him in the EU.

(Not that I was never an offender. I wrote 3 huge fanfic novels for the classic characters and I had Luke go darkish. But I used the twist that he wasn't in control of his own actions; he was actually being controlled by another. They still sucked anyway.)

How sad is it that I could totally buy that explanation of a clone Luke? That makes so much more sense than the Luke we've had to deal with all these years. Ugh. This is why I cannot read EU anymore. I haven't touched any of the NO stuff. I only have the older stuff.

*clings to SW*

[lyore.livejournal.com]

I'm a Star Wars fan first and foremost, but I've never really gotten deeply into the online fandom, apart from reading all the Luke-focused fic I can get my hands on.

I'm not really sure why - I guess partly because, by the time I had reliable internet access, the prequels had started to come out, and there wasn't really a focus on the original trilogy in fandom. And I haven't had a lot of luck finding good OT-focused, active Star Wars communities on LJ either.

But nothing will ever stop me from being a fan of the OT, although I go through phases of saying less about it so I don't bore all the non-SW folk on my flist.

I haven't had anyone to really discuss SW with in a long time. I nearly peeded in my pants when I found discussion on your LJ.

I'll discuss Stars Wars at the drop of a hat, if you give me even the slightest encouragement. You may want to stop encouraging me :)

It ruins the character and the impact of the movie to do this to him in the EU.

Exactly.