Finished!

[lyore]

Just finished.

It is... surprisingly good. I'm sure you all know about the my opinions of the last two (especially OotP), so my expectations were exceedingly low, but overall I liked it.




First of all, the bitching. Killing Lupin and Tonks off screen? After being the subject of the HP universe's most badly written romances, they deserved better. I thought Lupin's characterisation was interesting - not inconsistent with what has been shown before, butnot really what I was expecting. I'll be honest and say that, up until he married Tonks, I had him marked to die - as a father-figure and mentor to Harry, and as the last of the marauders,I figured he was toast. So I feel more sorry for Tonks - it seems she was killed by association.

Still not liking the typecasting of the Slytherins, either. Not one of them chose to stay? Ambitious doesn't have to mean evil. *sigh*

That epilogue... Albus Serverus?! Scorpius?!. She was doing so well, and then she just lost the plot. And Snape being the bravest man Harry ever knew?

I'll 'fess up to still not being in the Snape-fan brigade, even thought he should, on paper, be one of the characters I'm all over. And JKR keeps telling me that he's a brave, good-underneath-it-all guy, but I'm still not really getting it, even after the flashbacks and the memories. I don't find the 'Snape at school' thing particularly affecting, although as one of the terminal outsiders at my school I'm presumably exactly the type of person who should sympathise. I guess it's because, while he's victimised by James, etc, for the way he looks/dresses, none of his school-day actions show a person worth empathising with. All of these flashback scenes (speaking generally about the series, not just this book), have had far more of an effect on my opinions of the Marauders than Snape.

He betrayed Voldemort because he loved Lily? OK, leaving aside that all of fandom had that figured after book one, I could get behind that if Voldemort's threat to her meant he woke up and started to see the effect on other people, but I still don't really get that from him. He's still protecting Harry because he loved his mother, not because he disagrees with Voldemort's beliefs or because he thinks that it's the right thing to do. (And even as headmaster he still doesn't show concern for the students.)

I guess the reason Snape doesn't appeal to me like he should is that all the moral ambiguity he should have ends up in Dumbledore instead. I've been a fan of manipulative!Dumbledore for a while, 'cause (to me) the only other choice was believing he was completely incompetent. It was nice to see that addressed in this book - an acknowledgment that Dumbledore not only was he not as saintly as he appeared, but that he had deliberately endangered Harry to get the outcome he wanted. So yeah, I liked Dumbledore in this one, mostly. (Some of his plan was still a bit shite, though.)

There were a few to many ridiculous plot holes (Ron can speak Parseltongue just by listening to Harry?!), and Harry's plans are as useless as ever (but at least that is consistent *g*), and it still doesn't justify some of the pointless dren in book five, for instance (explain to me why we just couldn't have Harry able to block his mind under extreme emotional distress?), but overall, it didn't distract too much from the story.

The good stuff:

- Hermione kicks ass! I lost track of the number of times she saved the day.
- And so does Neville! *waves Neville pompoms* (And I'm not even a Nevillle fan!)
- Luna decorating her rooms with pictures of the Trio and Neville and Ginny *sniff* sweet, and yet sad. *waves Neville/Luna flag*
- Molly taking on Bellatrix - I think I like this. About time Molly got to show her stuff.
- Also, I love Ron. Just needed to get that out there.

OK, there was a lot more, but I need to end this entry up.



OK guys, what are your thoughts?

Comments

[seldear.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed the book, plot holes, deus ex machina, moments of WTF? and all!

The death of Remus and Tonks didn't bother me as much as it perhaps should have - and I'm a Remus/Tonks shipper from OotP days.

I'm not surprised at Snape's death or his situation, but I agree that "because he loved Lily" is a really thin thread on which to hang his change of heart.

The wholesale dismissing of Slytherins was also annoying to me, but not as much as the complete lack of any form of 'redemption' for Malfoy. I mean, JKR allowed Dudley to rethink his position, but Malfoy was still desperately trying to cling to the Voldemort side of things even up to the end. I'm not even a Draco fan and that was just...annoying.

I'm so glad that Neville got to kill Nagini - he needed to be able to do something. And I love Luna all the way through the book - but particularly at the end: "I'd wants some peace and quiet, if it were me."

(Harry/Luna 'shipper ahoy!)

Some of the rescues and escapes were just a bit too much, coming all one on top of each other. Go into the Ministry, get discovered, get out. Get into Malfoy Manor, get discovered (and tortured), get out. Get in to Gringotts, get discovered, get out. Get into Hogwarts, get discovered, fight to the death...

I mean, it works as a final book to the series, but it feels like she squished so much stuff in there...

HP 7

[geo-chick.livejournal.com]

I like the book in general however we are not on speaking terms after the off page death of Mr. Lupin, most unimpressed with that except that he did get to be happy before he went.


Neville rocked I love that his gran was so proud of him

Hermione I love that she got to shine

I agree luna's room was so sweet.

I always thought molly would be a scary enemy


harry as usual was all about action and walked into things constantly.

I thought it was all arranged between Dumbledore and snape already but it was nice to see him explain and explained, I'm so not impressed with the logic behind snape working for dumbledore, the lily thing is a dead giveaway but I was hopping she was responsible for a gradual opening of his eyes to the good in muggles/ muggleborns.
As for an evil headmaster in severus' defense he does have to keep up a front to remain where he needs to be. I do agree that the flash backs really just tarnish the shinny marauders rather than make snape look any better, he is however a little easier to understand.

Not to sure about the plot holes I,m pretty crook at the moment so I'm not up for a big breakdown of the book and it will a while before I read it again I think due to the death of the Lupins I was kind of hoping he would be safe when harry sent him back to tonks


Have a good one
Geo-chick

[lyore.livejournal.com]

I don't know, I liked that they left the Malfoys like they did. WRT Draco, I guess I liked it because it showed a character who was completely out of his death and preoccupied with just survival - not an unreasonable reaction, in the situation. It's only when I consider it combined with the lack of other sympathetic Slytherins it starts to bother me.

As mentioned above, I think I've fallen into the good ship Neville/Luna. Ironic, since prior to this book I wasn't a big fan of either of them (didn't dislike them, just not my favourites).

The repeated narrow escapes were a little much, true (the methods as much as the repetition - I mean, riding on a dragon?!). But I didn't get the feeling of so much stuff as some of the others - OotP, for instance.

Re: HP 7

[lyore.livejournal.com]

Hello! *waves*

I figured you'd be upset about Lupin. I feel really sorry for the kid.

I don't know... I don't really think I learned much about Snape, apart from the fact that everything his done in the last decade or three can be traced back to a childish crush. (OK, that might be overstating it a little, but you know what I mean.)

I hope you feel better soon.

[seldear.livejournal.com]

OotP was way overkill, anyway. It's the point at which the publishers discovered they had a juggernaut on their hands and took their eyes off it to count the money which resulted in said juggernaut promptly trashing the place.

[lyore.livejournal.com]

That is probably the best description of OotP I've seen. Just because JKR writes insanely popular books does not mean she doesn't need an editor like any other published author. (Except Anne Rice, of course. But she isn't really someone who's example anyone should be following.)

[ashavah]

WAAAAAAHHHH Remus and Tonks.

Beside that, I was actually really impressed with the book. I loved the completion of Neville's character arc. I loved the resolution of Draco and Harry's enmity. Molly vs Bellatrix was stupendously fabulous. The Snape stuff actually worked for me, though I think the random explanation info-dump could have been handled better.

In terms of Dumbledore, I really really didn't want him to be as manipulative as it looked like he was. See, I wanted him to care for Harry. And while it was manipulative to an extent the way he treated Harry, I still think he did have Harry's best interests at heart and was trying to find a way to get him through it all alive.

[lyore.livejournal.com]

I know *sniffle*

We may have to disagree on the Snape part - that was the one aspect of DH that *really* didn't work for me. Snape didn't learn anything, didn't grow, just switched sides 'cause this time it affected him personally. OK, I could even go with that, but for this highschool non-relationship to be his only motivation for all his actions? Bah. (And I don't even like Snape!)

I liked manipulative Dumbledore, have for a while. It explains one of the more significant weaknesses of the books, IMO. But I do think he genuinely cared about Harry, just that it wouldn't stop him from doing what was required. I should also add I don't think that is a bad thing, in this situation - after all, he is trying to plot the salvation of the wizarding world and all.

[ashavah]

I'm expanding my little papyrus canoe sailing down De Nile to make room for geo_chick. You're welcome to come.

Okay, I see the thing about Snape and Lily being that they were friends and shared the joy and magic of Lily's introduction to magic. I think it was that friendship more than the non-reationship to be his motivating factor, and also the fact that he had thought he could trust Voldemort not to harm Lily, but it turned out that he couldn't.

But yeah, I think in terms of a basis for Snape being 'good' it's pretty weak. But I think that Snape isn't really 'good', he just chose the side that good was on. If that makes any sense.

I think, in that case, that we do agree on Dumbledore, we just say it in different words.

[lyore.livejournal.com]

I've been floating down De Nile since book 5 - Sirius fangirl, remember? But I'm happy to join you:)

I see what you're saying about Snape. My read on the character was always that he was a not-particularly-nice guy who made a lot of mistakes in his youth, but then genuinely repented and joined the good guys. While I could never really warm to the character (too many abuse of power issues in his behaviour), I liked the idea that we had a genuinely unpleasant good guy. Now that we know 'morally right' had little to do with his decisions, that facet of the character is gone.

[ashavah]

Yeah, but you can share our canoe now. :-p I've gotten quite comfortable floating down De Nile for years and now I'm doubly doing it.

Yeah, I really liked that aspect of Snape, too. I suppose one could stretch it and say that it was the threat to Lily that made him realise it was OMG WRONGZ, but then again, he really does have a warped sense of morality even for a good guy. Now, if Lily had managed to make him question himself, like when she was saying she didn't like his Death Eater friends (which I kind of liked) and then he'd turned good, we could have kept that element. Maybe JKR meant to do that and it didn't come out properly, but I don't know.

[lyore.livejournal.com]

I suspect after this book, De Nile will be so crowded we'll end up jammed 5-or-6 people to a two man canoe :) At least we'll have lots of company!

[ashavah]

We have our places in line to sail down De Nile 'cuz we've been there since waaaaay before 9am book 7!

[vasher.livejournal.com]

Luuuuupin. ;_; RIP the last of the Marauders and the least-shown of HP romances.

I'm pretending that that Epilogue doesn't exist. Scorpius WTF?

Mmm, Dumbledore's true colors really show through, don't they? My take on it- makes him more interesting and rounded as a character, but I end up liking him less as a person... does that make sense?

Book!Snape is also somebody I could never really take a shine to- yes, he has this angsty backstory and dangerous spy duties, but he's also a big evil jerk.

Ron/Hermione FTW.

...so what was the point of all those Occlumency lessons, then, if Harry ended up using the opposite to keep track of Voldie? >.>

Also, the Malfoys living and so devoted to each other make me all happy inside. *is Harry/whichever Malfoy fan*

[lyore.livejournal.com]

I keep getting an image of this blond kid running around in (Farscape) Scorpius's mask. It's just O.o.

I think I ended up liking him more, but only because if he wasn't manipulative I would have assumed he was just incompetent, and I prefer calculating to stupid. But yeah, I get what you are saying.

Ugh, Occlumency *shudders* One of the many, many reason's I dislike book 5.

I liked the way they decided family was more important than Voldy - very in character, IMO. Narcissa FTW!

[malabud.livejournal.com]

Well, we did actually get a number of good Slytherins: Slughorn, Phineas Nigellus, Snape, Regulus. Narcissa helped Harry in order to help her son. Draco refused to look at Ron and Hermione to identify them. Slytherins look after their own self-interest first, after all. That doesn't make them evil. It just makes them less than good.

As far as Snape goes, I think his repentance went deeper than you think. He was very careful to never use the word "Mudblood" again. He even chided Phineas Nigellus for it. He hated Harry for looking like James and for having lived because Lily died. He despised Gryffindors in general because of the mauraders. He was petty and vindictive, but he did the right thing. Not a good man, certainly. But not an evil man.

I also think he kept the Carrows in check. I think they might have killed students had Snape not been there to rein them in. As headmaster, he probably could have found a way into the Room of Requirement, but chose to let those students who had fled there be. (He was the rightful headmaster. The office opened up to him, after all.)

I think Lily would not have been friends with a truly despicable person. She ended their friendship, true, but she had to have seen something there to stay friends with him as long as she did. Of course, that's the beauty of a character like Snape's. He is truly ambiguous. He did the right thing, but was it for the right reasons?

[lyore.livejournal.com]

I'll grant you Regulus, but I didn't really see Phineas Nigellus as particularly good or bad - he was helpful, yes, but I didn't think it was because of any particular desire to do good. And you are right about Slughorn - for some reason I was thinking he ended up fighting against Harry and Co., but I just checked and you're right. This does make me feel marginally better about it.

The thing I loved about the Malfoys in this book was their abandonment of Voldemort for each other - familial self-interest, if you will. So I agree they weren't evil, but I also don't think they acted to help Harry out of anything other than self-interest.

Snape - I'd really, really like to see him this way. Perhaps when I re-read I will. After reading this book, my impression was that all of his 'good' actions were motivated by Lily, rather than an larger epiphany triggered by her. Um, does that make sense? I guess the focus on Lily, the repeated reminders of how obsessed he was, undermined my previous belief that she was a catalyst for his change of allegiance and worldview, rather than the sole and continuing reason. (As a side note, given Voldemorts comments about not wasting pure blood, I'm not sure the Carrows would have been given permission to kill, regardless of Snape's position.)

I still think that JKR could have had some (even one or two) of the Sytherin students stay behind to fight - the confrontation between the Sytherins and the rest of the houses, the Slytherin table being completely empty, all emphasised division between Slytherin and the rest of the houses, and doesn't overcome the anti-Slytherin sentiments throughout the rest of the books.

OK, this is turning into a bit of an essay, so I think I'll shut up now. Thanks for commenting, you've made me think about this more.