Star Wars Question

[lyore]

A question for any of my Star Wars flisters who've read the EU.



In both the movies and the EU, we see a number of incredibly talented Force sensitive/jedi pilots, starting with the Skywalkers and going on from there. Is it ever established in the EU (since I certainly can't see it in the movies) that any of these pilots are/would be equally as good on flight simulators? I see it all the time in fics, but for the life of me, I can't really think of a good reason this should be so. And, because I had a bad day at work and this always prompts me to get analytical about fictional sources, I shall now attempt to show why I think this is so.

For the purposes of this discussion, lets split the use of the force to aid piloting into the following areas:

a) Enhancing situational awareness - using the force to sense the actions of other combatants, either friendly or hostile, in situations where ordinary senses/sensors would be inadequate.

b) Enhanced reflexes - the ability to respond more rapidly to stimuli/situations once detected

c) Precognition - the ability to sense things before they happen. Often seen in the form of a 'danger sense', as well predicting specific events.

All of these uses have been either implied or directly stated in the movies or books. (At least as far as I can remember. And yes, I know that the movies tie b) and c) together, and that c) is also related to a) but for the time being lets go with these definitions, OK?)

In a flight-simulator situation, it is reasonable to assume that b) would still apply (leaving aside the whole real-life-is-different-stresses-question, the Force-sensitive pilot's reflexes would be unaffected by whether the battlespace information they are reacting to is generated by real sensors or by the simulator computer.)

However, consider a), where the physical presence of the combatants is what the pilot is reacting to. Clearly, in the instance of simulated combat, this input would be missing, and therefore the jedi-pilots superior battlespace awareness diminished.

Consideration of precognition in the form of 'danger sense' in the simulated battlespace is more difficult. Assuming the pilot was sufficiently focused, perhaps the simulated danger could trigger such a 'spidey sense' response. However, it could also be reasonably assumed that since this artificial jeopardy does not in fact pose any danger, and does not correspond to any actual entity which could interact with the Force, it would not. The same reasoning could be applied to the use of the force to predict specific events.

Right. So of the three ways Force-sensitive pilots use the Force to enhance their abilities, one would still apply, one really shouldn't, and there is a definite case for the third either being substantially weaker or non-existent as well. While their enhanced reflexes would still give Force-sensitive pilots an advantage, this must be combined with the unaccustomed absence of other Force-related input (battlespace awareness and potentially precognition). Taking into account the profound effect the removal of accustomed senses, I think there is in fact a possibility that Force-sensitive pilots would perform worse than average in simulated situations, and certainly worse than their real-life prowess would suggest.



Um, yeah. All this was is a long-winded way of saying that I think it would be really cool if there was fic where either Luke or Anakin (or Vader, for that matter) was incredibly bad at flying sims.

Comments

[vasher.livejournal.com]

I very vaguely recall something in a YA series of SW books- New Jedi Order?- where Luke was joking that some simulator scare amusement park would be much less effective on him because of his Force powers. Curse my shoddy memory.

Your c) brings up an interesting point. Of course, Force users would be well tuned to blaster bolts coming their way or falling rubble or similar things, but what about less dangerous RL situations? If, for example, a whoopee cushion were placed under Master Windu's seat, would he realize that something was wrong before sitting? If yes, would that also translate to more 'dangerous', but less real situations, like flight sims?

Hmm, Luke did manage to block that floating ball thing's bolts in A New Hope. They sounded like they did sting, but probably weren't particularly life threatening per se.

I wonder if the Force sense could be transferred to the sim computer itself, rather than the created images inside.

In conclusion, I, too, would like to see one of the the Skywalkers get royally pwned in a sim.

[dizzy4411.livejournal.com]

That's a really interesting question. I know Corran Horn from the X-Wing books did really well in his simulations, which helps the argument that force skill does translate. BUT, Corran did not know he was a Jedi when he did the sims and only used a and c as "following his gut," so arguably he didn't rely on his force skills when he flew. I think it probably depends on whether the pilot has natural skill or not, and whether he consciously uses the force while flying. Like, in a dogfight is Corran only good because he follows his hunches, or is he just *good*. I argue for the latter, with the hunches/force thrown in as making him exceptional and much more of a risk-taker.

That said, I think Wedge Antilles is the best pure pilot in the Star Wars universe.

[lyore.livejournal.com]

Luke going to a scary amusement park, even a simulated one? Huh.

If, for example, a whoopee cushion were placed under Master Windu's seat, would he realize that something was wrong before sitting?
Now all I can think off is generations of younglings trying to play pratical jokes on the jedi council...

True, I hadn't thought of the training remote. Still, there is something there physically, presenting a physical threat, however minor, which I think would make a difference, ... hmm. Things to think about, thanks :)

[lyore.livejournal.com]

So there is some form of 'canon' for it - even though it is EU, which I take great delight in ignoring *g*. Thanks.

I argue for the latter, with the hunches/force thrown in as making him exceptional

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

I think Wedge Antilles is the best pure pilot in the Star Wars universe.

Well, I'm a biased Luke fangirl, and Anakin is supposed to be phenomenal, but Wedge would be next on my list. Although if the Skywalkers couldn't use the force, Wedge would come into his own.

[fialleril.livejournal.com]

*mind boggles*

Okay, all that techno-babel went right over my head. ;) But I think your fic idea would be really fun to read. :D

[lyore.livejournal.com]

Downside of being an Engineer with a physics degree - I tend to technobable at the drop of a hat :)

I'm thinking of doing my own, much more modest version of Nano this year, where I just sit down and write all of these niggling ideas. So you never know, I just might write it one of these days!

[fialleril.livejournal.com]

*whistles* You have a degree in physics? I'll have to be careful what I say around you. ;)

I would love to see that fic. Here's hoping you get a chance to write it!

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Is it ever established in the EU (since I certainly can't see it in the movies) that any of these pilots are/would be equally as good on flight simulators?

In the radioplay for ANH, Luke is tested on a flight sim because the Rebels are cheap don't have fuel to waste. I think for the most part Jedi skills wouldn't help much (reflexes aside), but I don't think that means Jedi would do badly, assuming they're basically decent pilots. Flight sims are set up to test ordinary pilots, not Jedi. They just wouldn't do as well as in real combat, but probably still slightly better than people with normal reflexes.

I also have a theory that Anakin has a special affinity for machines, and thus might be able to sense a computer's moves the way a normal Jedi senses sentients, but I haven't fully figured that out. But you know, I also have a theory that Han is so blind to the Force, Vader can't see him, otherwise how could he surprise Vader in ANH? So I'm pretty much a nutbar.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Oops, sorry, meant to reply to OP.

[lyore.livejournal.com]

Oh, thanks for the info on the radio play! I guess I really do have to get around to listening to that...

I'm torn - I think the jedi would have all the sames skills as a normal pilot, just enhanced by their jedi-ness. But then I also think that, if they were used to relying on their extra skills, not being able could conceivably throw them off balance and perhaps make them perform worse than they otherwise would.

I like your Han and Vader theories, although I always just assumed that Vader was completely focused on Luke, partly because he was trying to shoot him, and partly because he was intrigued by his force-sensitiveness.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Ack, sorry for the late reply--I haven't been checking my email much and my "check back on this interesting thread" mental reminder um, failed. Anyway.

1. Radioplays--I really like a lot of the extra scenes and fill-ins, especially the ones on Alderaan and the ones that shed more light on the strained relationship between Vader and regular Imperial officers. And there are others that I'm not so keen on, like most of the Tatooine fill-ins, and stuff like Luke in the flight sim that's just extraneous. The radioplays went from 7 to 5 to 3 hours, so the ROTJ has the least new material (and the weakest, IMO--it has a major injection from the EU which irritates the hell out of me). So anyway, they may be officially a high level of canon, but like everything else that isn't the original trilogy, I personally pick and choose.

2. I think it would depend a lot on the particular Jedi in question--the flight sim effect would probably be a lot weaker on Jedi who are less strong with the Force and/or more into actual flying. I think Obi-Wan, on the other hand, would probably suck in a simulator--Prequel!Obi-Wan at least doesn't seem to be a big fan of flying, and he is pretty into all the Zen letting-the-Force-guide-your-actions stuff. (But I also wouldn't be surprised if formally-trained Jedi are required to practice various skills without relying on the Force, just in case....) In sum: I think there's leeway for a whole range of possibilities! Hooray! Now I want to see this explored in fic.

3. I didn't really come up with the Forceblind Han theory, and it has problems (like, if he's invisible to the Force, how'd Luke know he was in trouble on Bespin? I guess one could rationalize that Vader tortured Han because he knew it would cause distress to Leia and Chewie, who are both strong in the Force...). But it amuses me. I'm sure Lucas meant us to think Vader was totally focused on Luke, but still, it is kind of weird how totally blindsided he is by Han.